Discussions about eggcorns and related topics
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Thanks for your understanding.
Chris -- 2018-04-11
Perhaps it is proper to say someone speaks elegantly—or, in a dignified, graceful, or polished manner. However, I would suggest that many use this expression when they actually mean to say “speak eloquently,” i.e., persuasively.
In the following example, the writer mentions rhetoric. I would contend that rhetoric is simply effective speech (or eloquence) —and does not necessarily require elegance (polish). Some may argue otherwise.
Regular Grand Lodge of Englandspeak correctly. The second is rhetoric, which teaches us to speak elegantly. The third is dialectic, which teaches us to discern the true from the false, ...
www.rgle.org.uk/RGLE_1450.htm – 34k – Cached – Similar pages
More…
Radical Teacher: “School” and “Only a Teacher” – Reviews …All of those films speak elegantly to the significance of their subjects in American history and culture. But clearly, in both past and present, ...
www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0JV … 83144/pg_9 – 24k – Cached – Similar pages
At any rate, my main point is this: “Elegant” and “eloquent” are not simply interchangeable, but many people use one or the other (or both) without any regard to which of the two better conveys their intended meaning. And, I would further add that writers would probably never have considered describing people’s speech as “elegant” had the word “eloquent” not existed. Hence, I conclude that “elegant” is the eggcorn of “eloquent” in the present context. -Joe Krozel
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It looks like this might be what linguists now refer to as “flounders”
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I read the link, Joe, thanks. I still think you have an eggcorn here. Eloquent is a much less used word than elegant. Both words imply a certain finesse; one with words, the other with fashion/poise. Poise. Perhaps thats where the imagery is blending. An elegant soiree and an eloquent speech are oftentimes accompanied with poise. I can see how the classic eggcorn model would really kick in here.
On another note: Y’all are getting too smart for me to understand everything going on here, sometimes. I hope I don’t become too stupid to play. Even if some of these details are a little beyond my grasp, I hope that it doesn’t nullify any sound point I’m trying to make on a more simple level. This would be a good case in point. I don’t completely follow everything postulated on the link, but still I feel confident about the points I’m making. Perhaps you can reconcile the two.
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You’re keeping up just fine, booboo. I’m no linguist; I just reposted the link that Chris Waigl provided in another link. I think it helps to tie things together and provide a certain amount of closure—or at least connection.
By the way, Chris—and on a couple occasions Pat— mentioned that they liked the exchange of ideas here on the forum. I think we need input from any English practitioners(?) that have an insight that something might be amiss with our language. People in touch with the way common people speak lend a different flavor of authority to the language debate.Offline
Jorkel—I haven’t gone back and reread the “flounders” article since Zwicky posted it, but I remember thinking that it was in some cases at least the same thing as your category of the “stealth eggcorn.” Do you agree, or do you see a difference?
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Actually Pat, I had discussed a couple different categories of word usage that seemed to share elements of the eggcorn, and I think the “stealth eggcorn” was the other category.
The category that Zwicky refers to as flounders seems to capture the word pairs that I assembled in the post below (which includes the current example)...
Words with close sound and meaning. by jorkel 7 963 Today 05:40:52
by jorkel
The other category— which I refer to as stealth eggcorns—are those situations where the imagery has changed, but there is no change in the words (or their spelling). The first time I noticed stealth eggcorns was in a remark about “playing fast and loose” having a different meaning from the original idiom that would only become evident once someone uttered “playing faster and looser.”
I don’t think the linguists have taken notice of the stealth eggcorn category.
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Pat—well. there is plenty of room for overlap.
All in all, Joe is right to point to “stealth eggcorns”, but wrong about no notice has been taken: The ECDB has an entire category for them, hidden eggcorns . Out of the posted ones, “shuffle off one’s mortal coil” and “the die is cast” are by far my favourites. One, “bemused/amused” should probably be reclassified as a flounder, but I entered it three years ago, before we even went live! We’ve learnt a little meanwhile.
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Oh, sorry, Jorkel—I was mixing up your categories. Do you remember that post from last year in which I proposed “Jorkel pair” for flounderish pairs? You responded to it, but I can’t pull it up with the search buttons.
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Sounds familiar, but I don’t recall which post. I’ll have to look more carefully later.
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